Well done. I would argue that the dogmas are not explicitly mentioned in Scripture and they do not affect salvation. Just today, Hallow uploaded my Lo-Fi music to their app. If your unbaptized baby dies, and theyre not baptized, guess what? This also contradicts the biblical purpose of an assumption. This is an example of eisegesis and known as a typology thats used a lot of times by Catholic apologists. It refers to a natural sister as well or a biological [inaudible 01:15:42]. In fact, Protestants believe in many doctrines that are not found in scripture like their 66 book cannon of scripture where that public revelation ended in the first century. Apologist, any of the Christian writers, primarily in the 2nd century, who attempted to provide a defense of Christianity and criticisms of paganism and other aspects of Greco-Roman culture. Yeah, no, Im grateful for Steve to take part in this. . Even Trent has argued that the word does not mean to be immaculately conceived. [3] Christie was activated to play on July 7, 2007 against the Hamilton Tiger-Cats. Trent mentioned about dying once. General Manager New South Wales MRC Australia Sep 2017 - Dec 2018 1 year 4 months. So a child that age, you think its realistic that in the condition that they were brought up, that Mary could have never committed a sin especially as a child? Click the link in the description below to go through to the greatest Catholic prayer and meditation app on the planet. Debate: Do Protestants Have the Correct Old Testament Canon? And since the context of Hebrews 11 includes the men of old [who] received divine approval (v. 2), it follows that the books describing the Maccabean martyrs were part of the Old Testament that was used by the author of the letter to the Hebrews. But the problem with this argument is that it says in Luke 2:22-24, that its offered for their purification. Finally, as H.G.L. That children at a young age do not commit personal sins. So offering sacrifices to Mary would be idolatry. Well, of course not. If Matthew wished to convey Marys virginity was perpetual, there would be no need to add until she gave birth to a son. She wouldve simply ended with he kept her a virgin or added throughout her marriage. Scripture reveals Mary was a Virgin, but conflicts with her being a perpetual Virgin. Dr. Steven Christie, MD is a Diagnostic Radiology Specialist in Miami, FL and has over 28 years of experience in the medical field. When it comes to savior, the word is used in a lot of different ways in the whole of scripture, not just in the New Testament. Sorry, let me go back a little bit here with this. In order to show these dogma contradict scripture, Steve must do one of two things. We have to remember that. Morgan Stanley, +4 more. I would stress that we look at what the church teaches in its magisterial teachings about Mary and her important role in salvation. Locals is a free speech platform. It has nothing to do with Mary being the ark. The claim that Mary did not give birth to other children because Jesus is called the son of Mary. And for Protestants, thats the same as well, because the doctrines of the canon of Scripture, or even Sola Scriptura itself are not found explicitly in Scripture. Man commits idolatry when he honors and reviews a creature in place of God. The 34-yard field goal came with just :03 seconds to play, lifting the Bills to 4-4 on the season. We see this in Psalm 69:25. I think it provides strong evidence for it. Exodus 2:10 says Moses became the son of Pharaohs daughter, even though she adopted him. Sounds like youre posing the question to you, Steve. Thats because they quoted primarily from the Septuagint, or the Greek Old Testament. Chris Christie is one of six Catholics among the 17 candidates running for the Republican nomination in the crowded 2016 presidential race. Jackson Memorial Hospital. One other point that I would raise is that other arguments that Protestants use to try to show that Jesus had brothers simply dont work. I mean, its not a good proof text to use. Why would that be the case? So Steve is saying that the word adelphi, which means sister. Were were talking about whats actually used in the New Testament, because even the New Testament writers would deviate from the Septuagint occasionally, because they would use a better translation. So thank you very much both you, God bless you, and stay safe out there. Im not saying thats a required view, but its a quite plausible one. Nice to have you. Rather, this counterfeit Mary developed over several centuries based on false typologies, which conflict with Scripture, no different than what Mormons, Jehovahs Witnesses, and Muslims have done with Jesus. When Jesus mother and brothers approach him later in verse 31, Jesus contrasts his biological brothers who dishonored him with his disciples, who were his spiritual brothers, who did the will of God. General Discussion (Forum) Main. Okay. It does not show that. Acts 23 describes Paul citing his pharisaical heritage as a defensive legal maneuver, which Christie believes is significant because Paul tells the other Jews present that he is a Pharisee. An interview of Gary Habermas with Steve Forkin of No Apologies; Video Link . He might redeem or rescue from bondage those who were under the law because we, which includes Mary, have redemption, the forgiveness of sins, Colossians 1:14. With the Bills, he would become one of the game's top kickers. And it is from the pure fiction of the proto evangelium of James, Odes of Solomon, the Ascension of Isaiah, the Transitus of Pseudo-Melito, and other false gospels and apocryphal literature, some attached with anathemas by early popes for entertaining these works. So you can use the app for three months before deciding whether its worth your time and money. I believe hes referring to part of a declaration in [inaudible 01:35:47], the declaration about the immaculate conception made by the Pope in 1854, saying that the fathers had always believed this about Mary being immaculately conceived. A four-month investigation found the late Ravi Zacharias leveraged his reputation as a world-famous Christian apologist to abuse massage therapists in the United States and abroad over more than. Psalm 132:8 says Arise, Lord, and come to your resting place, you and the ark of your might. Can you describe the ark?. And in the new Testament, the specific Greek word for savior is used about two dozen in times, and every time that its used in scripture, in the New Testament, it always refers to God or Jesus being a savior of salvation and saving someone from sins, which is why I brought up Acts chapter five and The Epistle of Titus. Geoffrey Stephen "Steve" Christie (born November 13, 1967) is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member Steve Christie - Nangungunang mga yugto ng podcast The word savior is used consistently in the New Testament to refer to a savior of sins. But when you look into church history, its kind of hard to answer that question because even Trent cannot say about somebody that agreed exactly the way that he does. So here, Mary can be talking about salvation from threats in this life, not sin. And I also want to thank Trent for picking the particular title on how it was actually described because I had mentioned, Hey, lets just do the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. And hes like, Lets do all three of them. So it was Trents idea. Well, why would I believe that Marys parents-. So final question I have for each of you, well start with Steve and then Trent. We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. I would like to demand that everybody hit that like button. Steve Ray is a Apologetics, Convert, Evangelist travelling from , Michigan. And again, if he meant only child, he wouldve used monogenes like he used it elsewhere in Lukes gospel. Here we go. You got five minutes, right? An interview with Steve Baughman. Go to Case For Catholicism, if you want more. Christie claims we can know God inspired the Protestant Old Testament canon because God chose Paul, a Pharisee, to be an apostle. Well, first of all, I would say that I disagree with Trent as a Catholic as how you define the word church, that in Roman Catholicism church is defined specifically as the Pope of the magisterium, and then when you get baptized in the church, you become part of that. Regarding the Immaculate Conception, the other Pope declared, but not infallibly, the most blessed Virgin Mary in the first instance of her conception was preserved free from all stain of original sin is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to believe firmly and constantly by all the faithful. Theres nothing in scripture that states that Mary was an exception to this. They wanted people following scripture even if they were wrong. Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how he got started in apologetics and why it is important. For example, the Essene Jews, whose writings have been preserved in the Dead Sea Scrolls, recognized the deuterocanonical books as Scripture. If righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died needlessly. Galatians 2:21. Yeah. Can you repeat the question real quick? Advertisement "God gave us the greatest apologist of this. Gordon Clark - Christian philosopher, apologist, and theologian. Worshiping Mary as if she takes the place of God and is the one who secures our salvation as if she died on the cross or something like that. At what point does Marion devotion or veneration turn into idolatry? Be sure to check out Steve's speech at Wyohackathon.io it was a very interesting talk about the history of money. He had mentioned about, in the book of Jude, about Moses and the devil contending for the body, or Michael contending with a body of Moses with Michael the archangel. We welcome all people, Christian, atheist, agnostics, and other worldly religions to our show. Matthew 18:17 says, Jesus says, If a person who sins against you refuses to listen to you or two or three witnesses, tell it to the church. And it seems to envision the church as having some kind of authoritative structure and not simply as the invisible bond between all believers. Mary had this early body. Yeah. No, it doesnt. This is how God as savior is used in both testaments. And if he had met sister-in-law, such as Marys sister in John chapter 19, he wouldve utilize the Greek word, [Greek 00:47:36] thats used in the book of Ruth to describe Orpahs relationship with Ruth. When the Bible talks about all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, as I mentioned in my opening statement, its a Greek word pas, which means, everyone, which would include Mary. Otherwise things leading up to it, we could interpret them either in a broader sense. 16. Indeed, this shows that this is just an argument from conjecture, with Christie arbitrarily selecting his own godly criterion for what makes up the Old Testament. No. While the wages of sin is death refers to spiritual death, that is the second death. Just as eating from the tree of life wouldve resulted in Adam physically living forever likewise, Adam, eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, result put into him physically dying. According to Dead Sea scholar Emanuel Tov, There is a special layout for poetical units that is almost exclusive to biblical texts (including Ben Sira) and is not found in any of the nonbiblical poetical compositions from the Judean desert (Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible, 102-103). Are you going to answer the question, does it describe her giving birth to anyone else or say she gave birth to anyone else? He was human. And my contention is that if Adam had not fallen and inherited original sin, he would not have died. Hebrews 11:5 states, By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death. And he was not found because God took him up. A fully independent, lay-run, 501(c)(3) ministry that receives no funding from the institutional Church, we rely entirely on the generosity of everyday people like you to keep this website going with trustworthy, fresh, and relevant content. Can you give one example in the New Testament where it describes God or Jesus being a preemptive savior instead of a redemptive redeeming savior? The other reason was that as a Canadian citizen, playing one game in the CFL, would be great way to finish his career. As a believing Jew and Christian, Mary would not have disobeyed God who commanded married couples to be fruitful and multiply, nor would she have deprived her husband as the apostle Paul wrote, the wife must fulfill her duty to her husband and does not have authority over her own body so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self control. 1 Corinthians 7:3-5.. Okay. It just means somebody is wrong, whether it be me or another person who calls themselves Protestant that accepts these things. The Counsel of Trent 46.3K subscribers In this debate, originally hosted at Pints with Aquinas, Trent Horn engages Protestant apologist Steve Christie on the question of whether the Marian. And in the Reformation, the two doctrines that came out of it was Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. Anyone who denies this dogma automatically contradicts scripture because if Jesus is God and Mary is the mother of Jesus. But before we do that, I want to say thank you to our sponsor, Hallow. Ive addressed some of them, but Ill address those other points hes brought up in my next rebuttal period. Im not sure what your question is. God is Marys savior because he regarded her lowly state and shes been lifted out of it by being called to bring the Messiah into the world. He mentioned about the Septuagint. As I had mentioned, the way a dogma can contradict scripture is if its explicit, implicit, or partial. Do you still have it? He is also a Sales Associate with Charles Rutenberg Realty Inc., Florida, working with his wife, Realtor Kelly Christie. But its still the first movie. And also Greek scholars do not rule that out. I do talk about this in my book and there, I note that its used differently than in Sirach 18:17, where the word is also used in those situations. In week 9 vs. the New York Jets, Christie went 3 for 4 on field-goal attempts (20, 29, & 34 yards). As I had mentioned about the Greek word, adelphi, let me remind everyone that this is about what scripture actually teaches and to remind that the Septuagint is a translation. So the fact is, does the Bible teach that Mary was not assumed into heaven? Lets talk about the perpetual virginity of Mary. We now are going to have four minute rebuttals. 23:2), some of whom were not Pharisees. Well, oh, can I have a [inaudible 01:22:11]. I think it says a lot about you all that you would take your time, all 735 of you, to be here. So was Jesus free from sin and he also died? Im a little disturbed about the comment about anything in Scripture being in error, because if we cannot trust that when it says about Jesus being our savior and rising from the dead. Steve Christie (Author of Good Deed) Steve Christie Goodreads Author Born in Aberdeen Scotland., The United Kingdom Website http://stevechristieauthor.blogspot.co.uk/ Twitter schristieauthor Genre Crime Influences Great Scottish fiction writers who can conjour up a good descriptive s .more Member Since August 2010 URL It would behoove us, then, to follow in their example and praise the gift of Gods word that comes to us in these writings and critically examine arguments such as those presented by Steve Christie that would tempt us to reject a portion of Gods sacred revelation. Steven Pinker is a scientist and public intellectual, provocative, informed and informative. And it all goes down to the authority of Scripture. First Mary may be speaking of salvation from dangers in this life, rather than dangers in the next life. The Protestant scholar, Ben Witherington says This figure is both the literal mother of the male child, Jesus, and also the female image of the people of God.. Finally, Christies Pharisee argument for the Protestant Old Testament canon fails because its logic can be used to make a similar argument for a completely different Old Testament canon. He says, this is a question for Steve. Hebrews 9:27 says, Its appointed for men to die once, but some people die twice. So my question for you then would be what are some objections you hear from Protestants that when you hear them, you think, Oh goodness, you dont even understand the Catholic position. So starting with Trent. Other doctors like Ambrose, Augustine, Irenaeus and others in the early church, like Tertullian, Origen, Hillary of Portier, and seven popes believed Mary was either conceived in sin or committed acts of personal sin, including Thomas Aquinas, as late as the 13th century. Mary also did not need to be bodily assumed to heaven like Enoch and Elijah, so they would not see death, supported by the earliest church tradition, indirectly supported by Scripture, and strongly implied by the dogma itself. One of these would be Psalm 69, where it says of the Messiah, I have become a stranger to my brethren, an alien to my mothers sons. The messianic Psalms are applied to Jesus, but not in literal ways. But it doesnt demand for that though. This question comes from agoyforJesus. So is this your view, Jesus and his siblings have the same mother but they have different fathers? Two individuals share the same biological mother and father? 17. Its a very beautiful open community and you get free daily podcasts and I think youd really enjoy it. It was only four yards short of the all-time NFL record. And then she was placed to be serving within the temple. But in his encyclical, [foreign language 00:20:13] Pope Pius the 12 said Mary is the new Eve who is free from all sin original or personal. Does the Bible say that Mary herself committed a personal sin or that she inherited original sin? After an in-depth study of the writings of the Church Fathers, both Steve and his wife Janet converted to the Catholic Church. So this next question is for you, Steve. So then if Jesus was referred to as the carpenters son, and its a patronym, would this eliminate his brothers being older stepbrothers, according to the Protoevangelium of James? Luke 2:7 describes Jesus as the firstborn of Mary, although the Greek word [foreign language 00:04:11] translated firstborn, can indicate firstborn opening the womb and is used this way in the New Testament. They also didnt believe in the dogma either. So multi-part question here. Hallow.com/mattfred, click the link in the description below. Number two is when Steve said, well, I dont think the church died off. But if we just read Scripture and read it fairly and charitably, theres nothing that contradicts, so far, Mary being mother of God, ever Virgin, or being immaculately conceived. And Steve and I also both agreed that the universality of things like sin or death dont preclude exceptions. And I also showed his other arguments to try to show that Mary gave birth to other children, such as from Psalm 69, Luke chapter two, as well as the idea that Matthew 1:25 requires that she and Joseph had sexual relations. Steve Christie also has his own website. First Corinthians chapter seven, again, it says, For a season in order to separate, but then it says, So that you go back, married couples to go back so you do not get tempted by Satan because of your lack of self-control. The word adelphos is used numerous times in both the Old and New Testament to describe people who have had the same parents. I guess, after the New Testament, I guess heres a fun question, which of the church fathers would you be okay with preaching at your church? The Greek root is used in Matthew 1:21 to describe Jesus who will save his people from their sins. I think it will be. I mean, its quite possible theyre born of different mothers, but theres no evidence for us to pursue that route. Regarding proof from scripture, for this dogma founder and senior fellow of Catholic Answers, Karl Keating wrote There is none, in his book, Catholicism and Fundamentalism understanding that these three Catholic Marian Dogmas contradict scripture has twofold importance. 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